PANORAMA: A Discussion on Book Bans

In a recent "Panorama" discussion, Niko Perez, Program Manager for PEN America's campus free speech team, shared insights on the alarming rise of book bans across the United States, which have increased tenfold in just a few years to over 10,000 documented cases. Perez explained that PEN America, a century-old nonprofit organization defending freedom of expression, tracks these bans and publishes detailed reports on affected books, trends in censorship, and geographic patterns. He emphasized that contrary to claims that book bans only target sexual content, the data shows bans disproportionately affect books featuring characters of color and LGBTQ+ protagonists, as well as those addressing topics like race, racism, grief, death, and wellness—often under the subjective label of "divisive concepts."

According to Perez, these bans harm education by limiting critical thinking skills, problem-solving abilities, and students' exposure to diverse perspectives, while also creating community division by politicizing previously apolitical school boards. He noted that while parents should have a say in their children's education, problems arise when small groups of parents make decisions affecting thousands of students beyond their own families. Perez highlighted the paradoxical impact of book bans, which sometimes increase interest in banned books while simultaneously forcing marginalized students to publicly justify their existence at school board meetings. To combat this trend, PEN America works by tracking data, raising awareness, supporting affected authors, and encouraging democratic participation in local elections to elect officials who value diverse literature and educational freedom.

Hosted by Alvin, Charan

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Transcript is generated with artificial intelligence.  

ALVIN: At Panorama, we highlight the stories and insights of the leaders shaping our communities. Welcome to our discussion with PEN America's campus free speech program manager, Nico Perez. Earlier, we featured Moms for Liberty, an organization fighting for book bans and restricted access to books. PEN America is the leading organization pushing against that fight.

In this episode, we highlight a new perspective to examine the benefits of diverse literature and education, why the categorization of divisive literature is flawed, and the impact of book bans on students.

Welcome to Panorama. This is Alvin. And this is Charan. And today we have Mr. Nicholas Perez from Panamerica. Mr. Perez, how are you doing, and could you take a moment to introduce yourself?

NIKO PEREZ: Yeah, sure. Hi there. Thanks so much for having me.

My name is Nico Perez. Um, my pronouns are he and him, and I work for PEN America on our campus free speech team, part of our free expression and education programs as a program manager.

ALVIN: Right. Sounds great. Um, we also wanted to talk about, uh, PEN America's work in general. And also, I guess you touched upon your role in the organization. Yeah. So what does PEN America do?

NIKO PEREZ: Yeah. If you haven't heard of PEN America before. We are an organization, a nonprofit organization that stands at the intersection of literature and human rights to defend freedom of expression. In the US and around the world, and we've been around for over 100 years, we celebrated our centennial, I believe, back in 2022, and we're part of a network of free expression advocacy around the world, really, just like there's PEN America, there's chapters in other countries, and these are all made up of membership communities of writers, artists, activists, journalists, students, teachers, essentially, you know, all sorts of different citizens who are committed to the idea of free and open expression for all.

ALVIN: I also kind of wanted to ask, like, what kind of situations, in what kind of situations does PEN America get involved in? Because I remember, uh, talking to you, um, we talked about, like, how wars inhibit writers. And so, um, you help them seek asylum and things like that. Um, what are some other situations?

NIKO PEREZ: Yeah. So PEN, you know, we're involved in a lot of different advocacy efforts across the spectrum of free expression issues. You mentioned, you know, some of our international work, Penn, our, our free expression advocacy programs. can be focused domestically or internationally, and they work on a lot of different things.

Internationally, we help, you know, predominantly writers and artists who are seeking, um, advocacy and assistance for different repressive, uh, environments that they could be living in, whether or not they're being targeted for harassment, whether or not they're being, you know, censored by their governments, or seeking, you know, emergency, you know, assistance to flee the country and, and You know, join fellowships and other types of programs in the U. S. where they could apply for things like asylum. That's what some of our international work looks like. Of course, in addition to, you know, PEN having a public voice and using our press releases and press statements to con to comment and kind of weigh in as a hundred year old free expression advocacy organization where we feel like we could have a positive impact on people's outcomes.

CHARAN: So, I know you talked a lot about the international work you do in repressive regimes, but what kind of work do you guys do domestically in America?

NIKO PEREZ: Yeah, and so, it's, it's such a wide mission, right, to be working in both spaces. You know, domestically, I would say, you know, over the past five years that I've been at PEN America, you know, our domestic work has increased in importance as we've observed more and more, you know, domestic threats and challenges towards individual freedom of expression.

Um, whether it be with book bans, educational censorship, and legislative attacks on academic freedom at public schools and even universities. Our campus free speech program, which I now support as a program manager, you know, is all about trying to help campuses navigate free speech challenges, um, whether they involve protests, academic freedom, diversity and inclusion on campus, discrimination and harassment. Um, but of course we're also very heavily involved in combating mis and disinformation and helping provide and advise on, um, tech policy and in social media and questions that AI is proposing in terms of free expression.

So it's not only international and domestic, but also online, you know, we're active on a variety of different issues, providing advice and expertise.

ALVIN: I guess I first reached out to you because earlier in the year we had Our local Moms4Liberty chapter, um, on and we debated and discussed, I guess, their challenges to books in our county and our school system and across our state in Maryland. So we kind of wanted to ask, what's the current state of book bans? In the U.S., and how is it affecting people?

NIKO PEREZ: Alarming and out of control to be frank? You know, we went from— so PEN America's been tracking instances of book bans and public school classrooms and libraries, and we publish these the data and our findings in our reports every year we have for the past few years.

And, you know, what started off is like, You know, 1500, you know, publicly reported instances of book bans a couple of years ago exploded to 10,000 plus last year. So we've seen just in the matter of three, four years, you know, the number of book bans that we're seeing increased by tenfold at least.

And what this is doing to our team, because we have a small team of folks on our freedom to read. team here at PEN America. I'm not on the Freedom to Read team, but I work adjacent with them and have collaborated with them on institute programs for youth advocacy and so forth. But essentially, that team has been presented with almost an insurmountable challenge of like, how do you even document all of the book bans that are actually happening around the country that are being publicly reported?

And we're seeing, you know, And that's just public reports of these book bans. We're also seeing emerging trends of, of soft censorship, you know, um, targeted weeding is a term used to describe how, you know, school libraries that are responsible for weeding their books, um, you know, to get rid of old books, you know, um, damaged books.

Now they're kind of, yeah. In some places we've heard that, you know, folks are now embedding in those processes somewhat of a targeted selection of certain books that are being, you know, tossed, not necessarily because they're damaged or old, but because they have, you know, some, what some view as divisive concepts in the books, right?

But, I'm sure we'll get into, you know, how that framing is so subjective and, and, you know, wrongheaded. But to be frank, the issue is alarming. It's exploding and it's almost hard to, to, to track.

ALVIN: Yeah. And I think in our discussion with Moms for Liberty, we realized how much of a deliberate effort it is, um, to attack these books.

Um, they talked about how they have a wide, like network of people working on this and, um, It was, um, very shocking to see that, um, and I guess wanted to talk about it like they were a grassroots movement, but the way they were talking about how wide ranging their efforts were, it definitely wasn't like that.

And so you kind of touched on, um, what PEN America does in regards to press reports, um, press releases, reports, um, and documenting the book bans. Could you go into a bit more detail on, like, what each of those means and how it works and affects, the movement against these book bans?

NIKO PEREZ: Yeah, we do release some press releases, you know, pertaining to book bands. Um, you know, when we see them, you know, occurring in a community and we feel like us, you know, releasing, you know, our voice and offering our input to the press could have, you know, an impact. A positive outcome, we do make those, but yeah, like you mentioned, you know, the work that we've been doing, the reports that we've been publishing, our most recent one is, is called Beyond the Shelves.

So the series has been called Banned in the USA, and the most recent publishing was Beyond the Shelves, published last year, and it was where we reported the 10, 000 plus book bans. Um, this is, you know, providing this data and doing this research and tracking not only the books that are being, you know, banned, but also what about these books, right?

Like what's in these books that are leading to the bans? What are the trends of censorship that we're seeing? And then also, you know, where are we seeing them in what states in what school districts do those states? have legislation that is super charging and super powering, you know, uh, local groups to ban these books, you know, are there the presence of groups like moms for liberty and others that are also local and achieving their outcomes of having these book bands.

So like our data on all of these things, right. The actual book bands and the trends, um, that is empowering advocates. I think that's really our greatest tool. We're not. You know, we're a national organization, and so we don't operate on the grassroots, we help support the grassroots and work in coalitions, and the best thing, I think, one of the best things that we do is provide those groups with the data, so that they can advocate, um, whether they're in Maryland, California, or elsewhere.

CHARAN: Yeah, so, um, how does PEN America work with, you know, elected officials, or does it work with elected officials?

NIKO PEREZ: So, our work is primarily, because we're a membership organization, we work primarily with our members who are writers, artists, activists, journalists, students, etc. And so, but, you know, as a non profit, you know, we do often do You know, have programming where, you know, we're working with policymakers of all different sorts on book bands.

I would say we're probably 1 of the least engaged directly with elected officials. And 1 of the spaces where we are most directly within gate with elected officials is out of our Washington D. C. office where we, you know, work with. You know, Congress people, um, on a variety of different things, educational censorship, media literacy, spread of disinformation, helping support international writers and artists at risk, but For this issue in particular, I would say most of our work is, is coalition building and supporting grassroots partners and providing data.

So not necessarily with elected officials.

ALVIN: That sounds great. We also wanted to talk about why this work is so necessary. Like the impact of diverse literature and protecting that freedom to write, um, and freedom of speech in general.

CHARAN: Yeah, and what, what impact does banning books have on children, on teachers, on the classroom environment, at school?

NIKO PEREZ: I mean, what does it do for these, um, kids that, that face book bans? I feel like, you know, most, when we think about, you know, what are the impacts of these book bans? I mean, we are literally keeping stories and information from youth. So what are the impacts of that, right? It's that, you know, we run the risk of raising, you know, generations who could become, you know, ignorant of, of histories and you know, confused over, you know, identities and human conditions and all of these things.

And so we run, we run the risk as a society, I think, of, you know, feeding into ignorance of future generations. But, but even from a practical level, like, you know, these books that are about diversity, equity, and inclusion, LGBTQ identities, race, historical legacies of, you know, trauma, uh, racism, discrimination, etc.

Like, if, if these are the books that are being banned, you know, the, these stories. Yes, they teach empathy. Yes, they, they, they empower, you know, representation and they help students see themselves in books. Some people might hear that, that I'm explaining to you as kind of like a leftist or left wing, you know, perspective.

And it's like, even, okay, even putting that aside, right? If it's not your goal to teach empathy to children, and if it's not your goal to make people feel welcome and feel seen, what is the point then? Why should conservatives be worried? And that's, look, I work on our campus free speech team now, and I can't tell you how many campuses I have heard from where conservative students feel silenced and feel like they can't share their ideas openly. And, you know, Where does that come from? You know, like, this, it all comes from these kind of, you know, just like, you know, folks are worried about, like, certain ideas being censored and viewpoint diversity not being encouraged. Well, the solution isn't to try and, you know, cull the number of voices, you know, that younger children have access to it's just going to further inflame polarization. And, um, you know, I wouldn't be surprised that some of these bands almost backfiring on conservative ideology in the future, because people's diversity of perspectives are going to be, you know, impeded so much.

And so I got on a tangent a little bit there, but I just think it's important that the right also remember that these books teach critical thinking skills. They teach, they prepare kids how to navigate the real world. They teach them about problem solving. They enhance their creativity and their openness of mind.

And if, you know, there are a lot of, if we start, you know, pulling out all these types of books that I've been mentioning, you're going to start seeing learning outcomes fail, you know, fail or be impeded in all those different areas, whether or not the students have conservative or liberal mindset.

ALVIN: Right. So I guess you mentioned like. A lot of people view this as a more left, um, kind of issue. Um, but you also said that generally it might backfire on, uh, conservative viewpoints and also it's essential for education, right? Um, and so I guess something that we touched on in our discussion with Moms4Liberty, um, was that they believe that it wasn't really necessary for education, um, I guess.

Can you talk a bit more about like, um, how this diverse viewpoints, um, improve educational outcomes?

NIKO PEREZ: Yeah, I definitely think as a country we're in, we're experiencing substantial disagreement over, um, what education really means and should be about, right? And it depends what we want. As a society, like if the goals of society are, if our goals are to just teach students, you know, math and science, even, but I even think that some, you know, folks may, um, you know, there's even such disagreement nowadays around climate change.

And so there's, there's disagreement around. You know, the sciences and so I wouldn't be surprised if after coming for, you know, LGBTQ literature, what's to stop folks from coming in later on, you know, to want to censor scientific, uh, you know, publications and literature because, um, it's not 100 percent agreed on science or things like this, I digress, but I think, you know, the goals of education are to you.

You know, teach critical thinking skills, teach problem solving, encourage openness of mind that could support innovation and development of ideas and possibilities. And. You know, equip students with skills and knowledge together. And so, you know, if we begin a subjective mind that has the goal of wanting to target and erase anything that could be potentially divisive, could erode education.

So much so that like you could even end up disagreeing on very commonly understood notions, but like this is part of the educational academic project is we're trying to create a common shared understanding of truth. And if we can't do that as a society, you're opening up the doors, you're opening up the floodgates for for chaos.

And so, you know, all of these different assets. That's why. Over the course of, you know, modern history, we've developed a curricula that has, you know, language, math, history, science, all of these essential aspects that are part of a core curricula. If we start taking away anything that's subjective, there's a lot of things that could fall under that category.

CHARAN: Yeah. Um, so, you know, one of the, when we, when you spoke with Moms for Liberty, one of the biggest arguments we've heard, um, on the opposition, right, for these books to stay in schools is that Moms for Liberty said that some of the books are in their minds inappropriate. So what would you say to parents that believe that books that that they deem are inappropriate shouldn't stay in schools?

NIKO PEREZ: I think that It's a very realistic and totally real and rational concern of parents to, um, you know, to have a say in their kids education. I think that's not what anybody's trying to argue. I think parents, if anything, should be more involved in, you know, their kids education and upbringing, right? And so, you know, I think I apologize.

CHARAN: Yeah, of course. So, um, one of the, one of the biggest arguments you heard, um, on the other side with Moms4Liberty is that they said, As parents, we see that some of these books, in our minds, in our eyes, are inappropriate for our kids to be reading.

So we don't, we want to have that say, that choice, to say, no, these books are too inappropriate for our kids to be reading. So what do you say for parents and people that think that, you know, their kids shouldn't be allowed to read these inappropriate books, these chronicle inappropriate books?

Yeah. So it's my philosophy that parents should have a say in their kids education.

It generally makes sense, right? They're your children, like you, when you have a child, right, you are responsible for them and responsible for their, their lives and their, their upbringing. And so, and then also we live in the United States, we have the First Amendment, we have free speech. And so I think, you know, parents should have.

And, you know, parents should have the ability to voice their concerns and to be a part of their community and Moms for Liberty and other groups have the right, the First Amendment right, to be able to assemble, to associate, to organize, right, and to voice those concerns. Where I start to see the rubber hit the road and where I start to feel like things cross the line is that when parents are deciding for other children that are not their own, right, you have And so you have, you know, some parents in this, with this issue of book bans, you have some parents going to school districts where they don't even have a kid, or they're proposing rules for the entire school districts to pull books off of shelves that then impact thousands of other students who now cannot have access, right?

And so in what's appropriate for one parent is different for what's appropriate for another parent, because parents just should have that freedom to like, have those differences. But we start by kind of feeding into a culture of censorship of if one parent has an issue with one book, no matter what the issue is, pull it for everybody.

I think that's where we start to encounter those democratic issues, right? And, um, I was also going to say something else, but perhaps we'll get into it later. But that's just part of, you know, some of the philosophy that I think is dangerous around all this.

ALVIN: Right. So I guess the discussion's not whether like, when we're against book bannings, um, whether we're restricting the right for parents to, um, have a say in their child's education, but rather like preserving the freedom of every parent to have that say, um, and I guess something that we researched, um, Throughout our interviews with you and also, um, with Moms4Liberty was the reality of what you said of a very small number of individuals going nationwide with these book bannings.

Um, I think I read a statistic. It was like 11 people were responsible for like 60 percent of book bannings nationwide. Um, something like that, where a very small number of individuals. Um, and But also, um, there's a very stark divide, right? Um, where there are groups like Moms for Liberty, WantTo, that have, like, some kind of line that they're drawing on what's okay to teach.

Um, I wanted to ask, how do we solve this divide between parents? And how do we, um, narrow it down to a curriculum that Um, people are happy with

NIKO PEREZ: This is the question, right? Where do we where do we go from here? Because I think there's so much disagreement and there's so much animosity in the society. And this is a cultural. You know, reckoning here. And it's like, where do you where do you go from this? And, you know, our position as pen and my personal belief, right, is that like, we should be trying to make as much literature available to students as possible, while also affirming, of course, you know, like the, the First Amendment and free speech rights of parents advocates who disagree with that. And so it's, it's, you know, that's kind of where, you know, we're, we're positioned, but when you ask my opinion on like, how do we solve this and go from this, it's been my experience, especially working here, you know, with local advocates in California, where I'm based here in LA, you know, in Orange County and, and You know, San Diego County, other places out here, you know, I've, I've got to meet local advocates and learn about what, what the local kind of grassroots movement pushing back against censorship and book bans, what that looks and feels like.

And what I've learned is the idea of banning books and like censorship and keeping books away from all students. It's a relatively unpopular opinion It's a relatively unpopular opinion Moms for Liberty lost so many seats that in school boards and elections that they had pursued It's not a winning message.

And so I don't see it as yes I do believe we should be trying as advocates to try and convince people and show people our way of thinking and why it is beneficial for education and why it's beneficial for children, um, and our democracy as a whole. But chances are, like, we're only going to get so far that way.

It's also a huge question of democratic contestation and people actually understanding the issue and going to vote in school board Elections and local elections for leaders who will help combat this kind of a thing, right? Because on the ground grassroots level, we should be having more conversations with folks.

Students have a huge role to play there in telling people how important access to these, this literature is important for their education and parents as well. But At the end of the day, democracy and the decisions, the policymaking decisions around this issue are going to be made by elected officials. And so we have to be working inside the system and outside the system at the same time in order to achieve progress.

ALVIN: Right. So we also wanted to kind of talk about that and address more specifically the statements that we heard from Moms4Liberty on our previous episode. And we wanted to run through each one. The first thing that we heard most commonly was, uh, book bannings only target, uh, sexual content.

NIKO PEREZ: Yeah, well, um, a quick browse through all of PEN America's reports, our ban in the USA reports will show that, you know, sexual content or perceived sexual content being degrees, you know, has been a reason for book bans. but there have been other reasons as well. Books have been taken out for, discussing issues of race and racism being that being viewed as too political or overly political. we've even had books that deal with, grief and death and loss and wellness. being targeted as part of a woke ideology. or, you know, being targeted for being inappropriate. so it's definitely not just books that have, you know, alleged sexual content of any degree.

We're seeing it across other different issues and different issue areas. Anything deemed as divisive concepts, essentially.

ALVIN: Right. And, uh, as you already mentioned, it's like so subjective, um, what that means of divisive. Also the next thing that they stated was book bannings don't discriminate.

Yeah. I mean, I think it depends a little bit of like what is really meant here because You know, if, like, certain identities have indeed been targeted more so than others in this, whether or not that's been expressly, expressedly, like, deliberate is one thing, right, because saying, Oh, this is divisive cons, you know, we're, we're banning these books because they have divisive concepts, but then 40 percent of the books have, uh, characters of color or LGBTQ content or protagonists, right?

It's like, clearly those, You know, uh, those two categories, you know, if you were to think of, you know, racial minorities and sexual minorities being, you know, 40 being, um, the protagonist or subject matter of 40 percent of book bands, like that's disproportionate when you look at the American population.

And so you can see and intuit that these are disproportionate bands impacting marginalized populations. And so to say that it's not discrimination, I think. is is is wrongheaded whether or not that's intentionally discriminating against those folks or knowingly discriminating is another question but we are in fact seeing discrimination against these identities with these book bans

ALVIN: And then the last one I think you already covered but um book bans target divisive literature so we kind of wanted to ask what that really means like What you see when they target divisive literature, what are they actually targeting? Um, and also, why is that such problematic language?

NIKO PEREZ: Because literature is divisive.

Like, it's almost part of its goal, right? In literature, you're telling a story. And if human beings are going to be how human beings have existed literally throughout our entire existence as a species, people are going to have different interpretations and reactions to stories in literature, right? And so that inherently divides people's And that's a good thing.

We want reactions and perspectives to be different from each other. That's how we learn. We engage with each other through dialogue and through conversation. And these stories inspire folks, right, to share their own and to engage in further dialogue and questions. And people don't want to read stories just about people and just about stories that they, you know, have experienced. People want to venture into their imaginations. They want to see what's possible and learn about what it's like to see from other people's eyes and to feel from other people's hearts and to think from other people's. minds and perspectives and points of view.

That's what we want as a, as a, as human beings. And so literature it, or good literature, right, is intentionally, meant to evoke a reaction and those reactions will almost inherently be divisive. And so that's why the subjective nature of coming after anything that could be divisive concept is dangerous.

I mean, does that Does that ban the teaching of do In math, because you're literally dividing four by two, you know, to get two. And so if that is dividing a concept, right, is that does that apply here? I mean, first of all, another thing is like these bills are so poorly written that they're causing confusion among math teachers and they're causing confusion among, you know, average folks who are like.

Wait, some people doubt the Holocaust, for example, right? Because there's, there's, um, Holocaust deniers out there. Of course, a horrid, horrid, objectively, you know, awful perspective to take. Um, but because there are people denying it, does that mean we can't teach it? Or does that mean we have to present two sides to a thing?

We've seen those debates and that lack of clarity, you know, um, occur among, uh, at schools in certain places. And so these You know, this, this notion of, you know, book bannings only targeting divisive literature, it's, it's so subjective and has such a dangerous consequences.

ALVIN: Right. I think that's really powerful, right?

So divisive literature, like the concept of divisive literature is really what the First Amendment is designed to protect, right? Um, and, but also. The fact that we're using divisive as kind of a category, it's so subjective and, um, I guess, really confusing for a lot of people. I think Charan has our next question.

CHARAN: Yeah. So, um, we wanted to ask how does PEN America support these authors that are targeted by bookends? I mean, um, you know, specific authors have been targeted by bookends and like there's certain popular authors and, you know, classic books like even like books like To Kill a Mockingbird, right? That have been banned in in districts across the United States. How does pen America support these authors of such books?

NIKO PEREZ: I would say that our biggest, the biggest way that we have shown our support has been to track the issue and inform. audiences and public and be speaking out in the media and to be, you know, involved publicly with our voice about the issue.

So as to, you know, help draw attention and resources and solutions towards, you know, challenges that they may be facing. Um, but pen America, of course, being a membership organization of authors, you know, writers, artists, activists, journalists, the whole spectrum, right. Um, you know, we maintain relationships with these folks as our constituents, as folks that we, you know, represent and want to work for and with.

And so we have relationships with and lines of communication with all of these different authors and writers. And so, you know, they tell us when their books have been banned and we, you know, learn from them and we hear about their impacts and do everything that we can to help amplify them, their voices, their stories, their experiences where possible.

CHARAN: Yeah, and we want to ask, so, like, how specifically does, does a book, like, what does a book ban mean for an author? Um, like, like, how does it affect an author, the writer of those books?

NIKO PEREZ: It has a range of different impacts and effects, right? I think most, you know, can be alarming, but, you know, some can also be inadvertent, um, inadvertently positive due to the effects of different activists.

What I mean to say is, like, when an author's book gets banned, right, that can have immediate, impacts on schools not purchasing their books for the libraries, or perhaps authors even having their school visits canceled, um, when, you know, authors go to travel to different schools to speak about their books.

That's been a big kind of challenge, right, uh, with this whole issue, is because that's a source of income for the authors, right? Um, but what we've been inspired to see is that sometimes, you know, when a author's book is banned, it actually kind of Excites folks and will draw on attention towards the author and their books and their stories because the human condition man It's like when you find out that like something is banned or forbidden.

You're kind of like what's in it that they don't want me to know, because now I want to know right? And so we see this kind of inadvertent spark of interest. And so I wouldn't be surprised, you know, some authors, you know, get bookings because, you know, they've been banned and now people wanna learn about their stories more in some states and at some school districts that have that openness.

I think overall, we don't wanna mistake that just because authors are getting become popularized because their books are being banned, that that doesn't make up for, you know, the losses and the. censorship and potential bigotry that we see sometimes that's silencing them.

ALVIN: Yeah. And our last question in terms of book bans is, well, how, how do these book bans impact communities? So not just students, not just writers, but, you know, communities in general.

NIKO PEREZ: You know, ironically, they're, they're, um, inciting more debates, right? It's like, it's like, you know, trying to target these books for being divisive, you know, is inciting these debates. In communities where folks, you know, folks are organizing saying, you know, we need to remove all the divisive books and then other folks coming out to say, we want the freedom to read.

And so I think, you know, oftentimes along political lines and enhanced by political polarization, we're seeing communities kind of further polarized and so. And, you know, at that point, you know, how did the decisions get made? They're made by the school boards, you know, who have the authority vested in them by, by the community who's running these elections.

So what are we seeing in communities? We're seeing, you know, school boards that have been relatively apolitical in most history in most communities. Now we're seeing people run for school boards on political party platforms. And So people are running for school board as Republican or as Democrat, right?

Um, and so we're basically seeing, because of this issue, school boards become politicized, communities become divided, and everything that comes with that, further animosity and, and kind of, you know, confusion over, over what's to come.

ALVIN: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, um, we had our school board elections, I think, uh, also in November, um, and we saw that, like, there was tons of PAC PACs spending money on school board elections, um, politicizing them, um, things like that, which was a really shocking development, um, I guess, in our community.

NIKO PEREZ: And I'm sorry to interrupt, but I just want to add too, it's like, I'm just thinking about, you know, the potential, you know, long term trauma that I hope some of these students can transcend and transform into, you know, activism.

But like, we're now forcing like queer and LGBTQ students to now attend these school board meetings and justify their existence. Um, To their community and justify justify their rights and their, their freedoms and that has for like for young people that has long term impacts, right? Like for, for me, you know, as a member of that community, like, I didn't have to go in front of my school board to say, like, You know, I deserve to read these books about people like me, like now we're seeing people forced to do that.

We're seeing, there was a young, um, there was a, a student who I believe was of South Asian descent in a school, um, in Missouri from a network that we worked in. Like, she was the only, like, non white student, you know, to attend her school board meetings. And she was fighting for the right to read books by people who looked like her.

And it's like What is that doing to folks long term, like, you know, to, to have to, you know, you know, fight for yourself. And, you know, I'd like to hope that it's, it's, it's going to be empowering your generation to become stronger and to, and to fight for your rights, that they're not taken away. But it's a huge burden that they're placing on young people right now that, you know, I worry that the mental toll and the strife that that's really, you know, causing in terms of impact.

ALVIN: Right. Every episode, we also leave, um, our listeners, which are mostly students, with kind of a call to action, and you kind of touched on it, um, I guess there's an increasing necessity for students to speak up about the, um, this freedom to read, um, freedom of speech, um, what, what can we do, um, as students, um, to fight these book bans, this, these attacks on freedom of speech?

NIKO PEREZ: Um, some advice that I would have for for students in today's day and age, right, is, you know, not— I'm wary of joining the chorus of voices that's like, “don't resign. Don't tune out. You know, don't, you know, recess and regress.” You know, I was, I was listening to a podcast yesterday that was, that, you know, really resonated with me and it was like, you know, when you look at kind of the, the arc of time and, you know, a lot of, a lot of times, like right now we, we feel a lot of us, right, as, as human rights activists and advocates for all of these different freedoms, you know, we may be feel, you know, fear and despair right now, and I think a lot of that's totally valid, of course, But looking back, you know, in the podcast, they were saying like a hundred years ago, like everybody that we knew from like a hundred years ago or something like this, um, that we look up to and admire, like they weren't able to enjoy like hot showers because like that hasn't been invented yet.

And that kind of blew my mind because I was like, you know what? Because he, he had said that we, we are, you know, anyone alive right now, we forget that we're living like kings and queens compared to the realities that people lived generations before us. And, you know, I digress, but we got there because we, you know, continue to fight these fights generation after generation.

And, you know, I know the stakes feel so high right now, but like this too shall pass. You know, take moments to appreciate everything around you, um, your friends, your family, your community. Your education and this, this godlike technology that we have right to know anything at any moment and to communicate anything at any moment and just, you know, try to find that sense of mindfulness that will carry you through these challenges, and don't be afraid to upgrade.

That would be my last thing is don't be afraid to upgrade your frames of thinking right is like, you know, I think there are things going on in our political universe that we just don't understand and cannot comprehend, um, and we won't with our current operating system, right? We have to change our way of thinking in order to make sense of the world around us.

And so don't be afraid to also change your mind, to change your approaches, and to, you know, evolve, you know, at this time. I hope any of that is helpful for, um, students and young folks to hear from a millennial, but that's, that's about where I'm at. All right.

CHARAN: Well, thank you so much.

ALVIN: I think we first started this podcast because we realized how much like different insights that people who really like live these topics, um, as their work and as their, um, activism can bring, um, and I think we really saw that and heard that today. We wanted to thank you and we really appreciate your time and the work you're doing. So thank you very much.

NIKO PEREZ: Of course. I'm glad. I apologize if I've, you know, rambled too much at places. Um, I have a lot of thoughts and a lot to share. I'm really glad that you guys are doing this kind of project and I think you're setting an example for, for students to, to talk more and to think more and to not tune out and to continue, you know, to, to, to talk to moms for liberty, you know, what's going on, you know, get to the bottom of these things and help us find the solutions so that we can upgrade, right? And get to the next step.

ALVIN: Alright. Thank you.

CHARAN: Yeah. Thank you so much.

NIKO PEREZ: Let me know if you need anything else.

ALVIN: Alright.

NIKO PEREZ: I'll be, I'll be around, alright?

CHARAN: Yeah.

NIKO PEREZ: Bye. Peace.