PANORAMA: A Discussion on Criminal Justice Reform

In a recent "Panorama" discussion, Maryland State Public Defender and Maryland Equitable Justice Collaborative co-founder Natasha Dartigue highlighted the critical role public defenders play in safeguarding constitutional rights for those unable to afford private representation. Operating through 52 offices across Maryland's 24 jurisdictions, public defenders face significant challenges including budget cuts approaching $2 million under Governor Moore's administration and staffing shortages, particularly in Baltimore City and Prince George's County. These issues are compounded by increasing caseloads due to modern evidence types like body camera and cell phone data.

Dartigue advocates for several solutions to these challenges, including increased governmental support, loan repayment programs to attract new hires, and the Maryland Equitable Justice Collaborative—a partnership between the Office of the Attorney General and the Office of the Public Defender. She criticizes the expansion of jurisdiction to younger juveniles and emphasizes the importance of investing in community programs that address poverty, which she identifies as the root cause of crime. By focusing on economic opportunity, education, and healthcare rather than increased incarceration, Dartigue believes Maryland can reduce crime and dismantle the school-to-prison pipeline.

Hosted by Alvin and Charan.

read the transcript:

Transcript is generated with artificial intelligence.  

ALVIN: At Panorama, we highlight the stories and insights of the leader, shaping our communities. Welcome to our discussion with the Maryland public defender, Natasha Dartigue, about her work with the criminal justice system. Earlier this year, we sat down with the former U.S. district court judge Alexander Williams, Jr. This time, we'll discuss the same topics around the criminal justice system. But from a different perspective, from someone who has worked in and has worked to change the justice system..

CHARAN: Hello, my name is Charan, and I'm Alvin, and today we have Miss Dartigue, who is the Maryland Public Defender. Miss Dartigue, would you mind introducing yourself?

NATASHA DARTIGUE: Hi, my name is Natasha Dartigue, and I am the Maryland State Public Defender.

ALVIN: Okay, fantastic. So, we're going to get started with the first question, and that's just, um, could you tell us a little bit about your role at the Office of the Public Defenders, uh, and just the role of public defenders across Maryland?

NATASHA DARTIGUE: So, uh, generally, public defenders, we are the statewide advocates that primarily are responsible for, uh, securing justice, protecting civil rights, and preserving liberty for those individuals that are charged with, uh, criminal offenses that are deemed to be indigent. And our work spans in terms of the criminal space, but also juvenile parental defense, and we also represent individuals in involuntary, uh, commitment proceedings. Our work spans throughout the state, which means that we are in all 24 jurisdictions in the state of Maryland. We have 52 offices to be able to accomplish this huge task. So we have offices from the beaches to the mountains and everywhere in between.

ALVIN: Great. So, um, we also wanted to ask, in your view, why are public defenders so important?

NATASHA DARTIGUE: Gosh, they're, uh, so important because essentially we are the protectors of the Constitution, and especially when you think about situations where individuals cannot afford to pay a private attorney, and they have to go against the power of the state, meaning they have to go against all the, uh, the resources and the might of the state. We serve as the protectors of the individuals and to ensure that their rights are not violated.

CHARAN: Okay, fantastic. So our next question is about something recent. So Governor Moore announced massive budget cuts this summer, and specifically the Office of the Public Defender is losing around 1,130,000 dollars. So could you tell us how has this or how will this affect, um, the work you guys do?

NATASHA DARTIGUE: So, uh, essentially we were facing budget, uh, cuts of almost actually a little bit closer to 2 million. And this greatly impacts our work in that you, you think about we are an agency that is already in a position of being, um, under, uh, resources and every penny that, uh, we have, uh, counts, be it.

Towards salaries of the employees that work in the office, or providing resources to the various teams throughout the state that they need in terms of representation. So, the resources go from something as small as the facilities, the spaces in which people work to as extensive as the need for. Um, experts and various persons on the team to provide additional support, uh, information.

So when we face, uh, cuts that deeply Impacts the work that we can do these particular cuts that we faced the last go around were monies that were designated for our core staff members. We refer to our support staff as core staff and essentially, because they are the core, the fundamental and extremely important members of the team in terms of the work that we do daily.

Our core staff members tend to be the lowest paid members of our office, and those monies were going to help augment, uh, their, uh, salaries. So, we have situations now where we were hoping to give individuals, um, raises, but because of the cuts, we're not able to give as many raises or give raises to as many people as we had first hoped.

CHARAN: Okay. So our next question is kind of about the shortage that public defenders are facing right now, especially in Maryland. So we read through the office of the public defender report from 2023, and this, this report now relies on new, you know, the caseload standards were updated from 2005. So, and what they found was essentially that many jurisdictions like Baltimore city, Prince George's, uh, Prince George's County and Baltimore County are facing, you know, upwards of 100, um, 100 to 200 public defenders short. So how does this shortage affect the representation that you guys can provide?

NATASHA DARTIGUE: So first I'd like to say that we have been extremely intentional in terms of our hiring and we have been successful in bringing additional staff. Members so and the staff includes not just the lawyers, but the other critical members of the team. So that includes core staff members includes social workers includes paralegals.

Those are all critical members of the team. Outside of and including lawyers. So we have been extremely successful in bringing new members to the team. However, it's it's not enough. The reality is in the state of Maryland. We, the office of the public defender represent almost 90 percent of all individual charged with criminal offenses.

And the reality is that. The police are continuing, uh, to, uh, to arrest, so we continue to see a rise in the number of cases that we face. Then you add the fact that criminal defense, um, has changed over the years as, uh, technology has evolved. So now that we're seeing more, uh, cases involving body cam, involving cell, uh, phone data, uh, All the things that you can imagine related to technology.

Now we're getting even into the space of AI and face recognition that has changed the practice of law and made it even more challenging and made the workload. Um, even, uh, heavier. So we are continuing to battle that. We are continuing, um, to, to hire. One of the challenges that we face as a state agency is in terms of equity with sister agencies, equity with, um, and competitiveness from federal agencies.

But in terms of the work that we're doing internally, we are heavily recruiting. We are currently hiring. And as we bring in new people, we're able to address the caseloads, but it's an ongoing challenge and it doesn't help that we are facing budget cuts or that people who really believe in the work and are committed to the work.

Um, are essentially, uh, burned out and we are cognizant of that and we are continuing to work, uh, to ensure that we continue to bring in people, but also make sure that we retain the people that we have right.

ALVIN: So you mentioned that you've been successful with hiring more public defenders. So we wanted to ask also what strategies you want to see from, the government or other policy initiatives to help, bridge that gap between, public defender shortages.

NATASHA DARTIGUE: Well, uh, first and foremost, it's always a question of, uh, resources. We want to see, um, government entities, um, in particular, Um, the governor's office to continue to pour, um, into the office of the public defender to add additional resources.

Um, we are thankful in, in the past that we've had a positive response, um, especially from the members of the general assembly in recognizing our need and where they can adding additional resources. We're not at all where we, um, need to be, um, but we are in continuing need. And we are appreciative of those who recognize that and are working with us to address the need on the front end.

A lot of the solution is in regards to how we are treating people in community, especially those from marginalized and indigent places throughout the state, working to, um, to, to change laws, creating, um, Um, partnerships with other criminal law stakeholders. For example, um, our partnership with the Office of the, um, Attorney General through the Maryland Equitable Justice Collaborative to address the issues of, um, mass incarceration.

Because essentially, less people coming in on the front end helps us. Especially office of the public defender in terms of representation, um, on on the back end. And ultimately, my, my, my hope would be with that we'd be in a position where we have too few cases versus where we are now. So. Working with other criminal, uh, justice stakeholders to create, um, positive change on the front end helps us on the back end in terms of workload.

So, like I mentioned, we had the Maryland Equitable Justice Collaborative, our partnership with the Attorney General, and approximately four other criminal justice stakeholders throughout the state seeking to address the issues of mass incarceration. It also goes to our work in the General Assembly, um, Making sure that, um, we are enacting good laws that uplift communities, but also, um, pushing back against, um, the bad laws.

Uh, so, for example, one of the main initiatives that we have coming into this legislative session is ending the automatic charging of children as adults. So an initiative such as that does not make our community safe, nor does it go to the underlying problem of why children are involved in delinquent behavior.

So it's twofold. It's, uh, On the back end, seeking additional resources, working to change the system, but also working to change the system by collaborating with partners, changing laws, and also being out in the community, making sure people are aware of what the current law is, what their rights are, and how they can be part of effective change.

CHARAN: One thing I want to ask about is, uh, a few states have, like, a few states Office of Public Defenders have a loan repayment, um, program to help, to incentivize new hires. Is that something that you think would be beneficial in Maryland?

NATASHA DARTIGUE: So we are a state agency, so there are programs that exist within the state.

So for example, if you work with certain, within certain entities, which is included public interests, like the public defender's office for a period of 10 years, there is a loan of forgiveness program currently.

Okay. Definitely. Um, encourage it. Um, Because you think about it as students, uh, that can be a deterrence to going into certain fields when you think about after you graduate, the enormity of debt that you may or may not have.

So loan forgiveness is an option for those working in public interest, and the Public Defender's Office is one of those areas.

ALVIN: Right. You mentioned earlier the Maryland Equitable Justice Collaborative. we want you to elaborate on that and tell us what you do as part of that organization.

NATASHA DARTIGUE: So that is a historic partnership between the Office of the Attorney General and the Office of the Public Defender. I say historic in that traditionally, the, OAG and the OPD are on opposite sides of, the courtroom. But for this particular effort, uh, the AG Brown and myself recognize that Maryland is at a critical, uh, point.

And that we in our respective roles have an obligation, especially as being the first, A. G. Brown, being the first person of color to serve as attorney general and myself as the first person of color to serve as public defender. We are a unique point in history to essentially effectuate meaningful change.

Uh, we have a personal pledge that, um, we did not want. Our respective time in our roles to be simply recounting that we were the 1st, but also we wanted to be meaningful in terms of what we did during that time. And, um, the idea came that this is a critical moment in history, and we have an enormous responsibility as well as an opportunity to address.

One of the cancers that exist in Maryland, and that is the mass incarceration of people of color, in particular, black men. So, we have taken on that enormous task, and we are cognizant that we didn't get here in a matter of years or even decades, that this has been a long path in which Maryland finds itself.

Um, We are essentially a state where the state population is approximately 31 percent black, but we incarcerate a little bit over 70 percent of those persons who are in our jails and prisons are, um, are black. That is a horrific fact. So the undertaking is to address that issue. And in addressing that issue, recognizing there are several components of that, there are components that that are within the community before someone is justice involved, then there are components of the problem that are within the justice system.

And then there are components of the problem that once someone has essentially. Done their time and are seeking to return as a productive citizens. What are the impediments that that they they face the through the collaborative. So it is a partnership between OPD and but also we working with University of Maryland systems as well as 40 other.

Stakeholders who, in one way or another, are involved in the work, be it through programming or research, we even have law enforcement partners all coming together. As a brain trust to make a recommendation in terms of in these various areas, how can we effectively change that will positively impact Maryland.

We have been working since our announcement of the collaborative since August of 2020 on three. We have been working really diligently. It is our hope and we're still on target to present our first report in terms of recommendations for Maryland to move from the current state towards ending mass incarceration.

ALVIN: Right, so we spoke to Judge Alexander Williams Jr.

NATASHA DARTIGUE: Yes, he was part of the collaborative.

ALVIN: Right, so he was on our podcast earlier this year, and we talked to him about criminal justice reform and juvenile justice measures, and especially the ones that were recently signed into law, where they expanded state jurisdiction to younger juveniles.

We just wanted your viewpoints on how that measure affects, children, but also public defenders and their workload.

NATASHA DARTIGUE: Uh, the passing of that law was an extremely sad day in, in Maryland. It's signifying us, um, going contrary to what, uh, data and research shows in how to best address issues, especially those of a criminal nature when we're talking about children.

It also was a horrific day. Uh, in Maryland, um, to go against all the work that had been previously done and, and, and the thought into best, um, practices. And it was also ignoring the, the fact that, um, children should be treated as children. So now we're in a place where there is expanded jurisdiction. Um, and meaning that we can now bring into the criminal justice space, children at a younger age, 10 to 12.

This exposure to the criminal justice system again is contrary to the data and the science in terms of how to best address the link with, um, behavior. Um, but again, it doesn't address as to, um, the need of the child or address the need of the family or address public safety for the. Community. We continually to fall into the cycle of relying on carceral initiatives to address underlying problems and have have failed.

We've seen ourselves as a society in a system where we're continuing to put people in jail and address issues by locking people up, arresting, taking into custody. And we've been doing this for decades and decades and expecting a different result. So now we've expanded to include exposure to children and not truly addressing why perhaps is a 10 year old involved in an alleged criminal act.

And that's the negative impact in terms of community, the negative impact in terms of public defense. Well, youth defense is a specialty. When we think about children in court. We think about how we must address the issues involving children. We must think about our attorneys, especially those dealing with children are trained.

To, uh, in age appropriate language, for example, to ensure that the Children and families understand the process. So, as we increase the contact of Children into the criminal legal space, we also need to proportionally increase those experts who are able to address the needs of the Children. So, that would mean specialized.

Increasing the number of youth defenders, but especially in the space of dealing with children, you then also need additional social workers, and then we also would need additional access to and availability of programming.

CHARAN: Our next question is, we've talked a lot about the shortage of public defenders, but we know that in the past, Maryland has also had a shortage of prison workers, um, and prison officers as well.

So, I think one of your focus points is making sure that detention centers are safe and humane. What does this shortage of prison officers mean for people that are incarcerated and what measures or policies, uh, could help, uh, rectify them?

NATASHA DARTIGUE: So, what as public defender I see as rectifying the shortage of correctional offices, for example, is an increase in community programs, because if you increase community programs, you are there on the preventative end.

It is a better use of resources, not to continue to build prisons, not to hire more correctional staff. A better use of resources is to pour into the community. So individuals have economic opportunity, better quality education, access, um, to, to healthcare. We, The solution is to address the issues of poverty, because poverty is essentially the mother of crime, um, so you address the issues of poverty, then you have less crime, and you have less crime, you have less convictions, and you have less convictions, you have less need for detention centers, and then you have less need for correctional staff.

So for me, the solution is, Pouring the money into the community, providing the support and the resources that the individuals need so that they can thrive and live as productive members of society so that they don't turn to a crime or theft or any parts of crime as a means of survival. They have been provided the opportunity and the skills that they need.

CHARAN: I know you've talked about, um, the fact that instead of incarcerating more individuals, we should focus on, helping eliminate poverty in Maryland. So what strategies, do you think would help with, with helping reduce poverty and mass arrests?

NATASHA DARTIGUE: We have so many great programs that already exist within the communities, especially marginalized communities that are doing the work.

So really providing funding and support to those programs is essential. The framework already exists. We work with various programs. And, there's Gatekeepers in, in Washington County, the Center for, uh, Urban Families, uh, in, in Baltimore City, there's Life After Release in Prince George's County, and I'm just kind of rattling off a few, um, but there's so many similar programs throughout the state of Maryland that, um, currently exist, and we need to put our attention on them.

In terms of having individuals connected, supported, and that is how we can get communities to, to continue to thrive. That's, that's where the answer is into, into public safety, public safety is not increasing the number of police on the corners, public safety is not Increasing the number of arrests.

Public safety is not increasing jail sentence. Public safety is creating opportunities within the community where people can thrive. And the answer is that is in terms of health care is in terms of school is in terms of jobs. That's where the solution slide.

ALVIN: Right. We also wanted to focus on, I guess, one of the problems that was mentioned in the Maryland Equitable Justice Collaborative.

We're high schoolers, so we're especially interested in the work that you guys do addressing the problems of the school to prison pipeline, and we want to know a bit more about that.

NATASHA DARTIGUE: So, The, the work that we're looking to, especially as it speaks to to use is what is happening in the school. For example, many schools have officers that are at the schools and addressing.

What, what conduct is being automatically, uh, determined to be, to be criminal? Because, because what we know is that there's certain behavior in middle school and in high school are just about being a middle schooler or a high schooler. Um, are we looking and making decisions based upon Um, the, the circumstance.

Are we making decisions based upon the age of the individual? Are we making decisions based upon the fact that we know at age 16 an individual's brain is not fully, um, developed, the full develop, brain development does not happen until age 25? Are we making decisions based upon the fact that Those critical, um, adolescent ages, those are the ages when you are, in fact, influenced by your peers, and that influence can be positive, encouraging you to join a sport, or, uh, or the, the, the play, or, or play an instrument, or, Or those influences can also be negative to engage in, um, some sort of negative activities, such as, you know, steal from the local store, but good or bad.

Are we assessing these situations and really from the place of understanding that. This is part of adolescence. This is where you, where you are, um, making mistakes. This is the era when your judgment is poor. Um, so I think it's important when we're, we're looking into that. Um, we're also looking to our policy makers, um, fairly and adequately assessing it.

Do our reactions, and they often do, are they pushing children into one direction or they're pushing into another? Are the responses supportive of children so that they do thrive? Are we really looking into a situation, for example, if a child is, has poor behavior in school, um, what is the underlying reason for that, that behavior?

Are we just plucking the child out of school and sending them to juvenile detention? Or are we assessing in that situation, why is that behavior happening in, in the schools. So we're really looking to collect the data, especially to determine what are the racial disparities, how are children in a certain zip code in a certain school, being treated.

And their children of color versus other children who are maybe, um, go to a more or in a more affluent zip code, um, or perhaps attending a private school. What are the disparities, um, in, in treatment? So we're also collecting data and studying that, as well as determining whether or not those adults in their respective roles are engaging in appropriate responses, right?

Um, because the degree and the amount of contact that you have. with the criminal, uh, justice system at an early age has a direct impact in terms of when you get older, whether or not you will have a continuing or additional contact with the criminal legal system.

CHARAN: Okay. Thank you. I would like to ask, um, if, if you know this just to contextualize, do you know what percent of criminal defendants in Maryland are represented by public defenders?

NATASHA DARTIGUE: So, um, it's approximately in this approximation, approximately 90 percent of all individuals who are charged with a criminal offense are represented by a public defenders.

CHARAN: Wow. So then that statistic directly proves that. The people that are getting arrested the most are people from poverty, right?

NATASHA DARTIGUE: Yes, yes, because it, it, it's directly proportional that you think about the communities that are, um, over, uh, over policed, um, are a marginalized community, so it's just a numbers game.

So if, if, uh, the police are highly concentrated and have high contact in a particular area, well naturally that'll be the area from which you have the highest number of, um, arrests.

ALVIN: As we wrap up, um, we just want to leave our listeners with Um, a call to action. So as students, what do you think we could do to help influence change in the criminal justice system or similar.

NATASHA DARTIGUE: So I, I say first and foremost, um, thank you for having these podcasts and having this discussion, because step one is always to be informed, and we're in an age where there's so many Modes of information, but they're not necessarily all accurate.

So it's important to bring in individuals who are actually day to day working in the space who are experts in the space. So I commend you for reaching out and essentially seeking the information from the source for those working in the space. Um, Several, several things. I say to you that first and foremost, we must be in a space that as Marylanders, we are treating children, um, as, as, as children is and in treating children as children, um, we also must.

Be cognizant that in fact, as Children, um, they develop at a different rate. They have a different way of processing. They have a different way of understanding. Um, and that if we are to address the needs of Children, um, We have to have that in in the forefront as we deciding and making decisions in terms of the needs of Children.

We have to do it based upon what the data says what the facts say, and mainly also what the science says, because the reality is that our Children are going to be our future future adults. And it's important that we were into them in positive ways, and we help guide them to be productive citizens.

Several things to also think about. Um, it's important in this day and space that, um, when we're talking about treating children as, as children, one of the main issues in the criminal legal space is that we end the automatic charging of children, um, as adults. The juvenile justice system and the adult system are two different things.

If we're going to treat children as children, making sure that we address their needs, that includes. Mental health. That includes education and treating children as children. The best place to do that is within the juvenile, um, also understand that our duty in treating as children as children is to is to protect them under the law.

If you are, in fact, arrested or detained by police and you are in custody and they seek to question you, that is a custodial interrogation. Under the current law, you have a right to first speak to an attorney. This is extremely important because one, many, most children have never been in that setting and do not know what their rights are.

Number two, it's important that someone who is not only educated in the law, but also trained in ways to speak to children, um, is, is there as their lawyer to advise them of their, um, rights. That is a right that is given by all persons who are in the custody of police. And as, um, knowing the, that the individual is a child.

It's important that we take every step to even further protect that right as young people. It's important to know that you have a voice and a lot of the decisions that take place are decisions about you. Um, so when there's opportunities and forums. I'll be a town halls. I encourage you to be in this space to give the perspective of what it is actually to be a young person in the in the here and now.

Many of us who are the decision makers. have a sense, but the thing is that growing up, for example, going through school during COVID and living through this age of social media is, is, is different. And every day that it changes, that's an important aspect in terms of how young people see the, see the world, how young people interpret the world.

So I encourage you to, to, To do the podcast, to be vocal, but also to, to, to show up, um, in spaces where things, especially when it's juvenile issues, youth issues, to be in that space and be part of the conversation. Um, because a lot of the times people are talking about you and, um, and seeking to create solutions.

I think it's important that you are in the space and engage to help create the solution.

CHARAN: Well, we just want to say thank you so very much for your time today. We really appreciate the work your office is doing and public defenders all across Maryland are doing. So really, thank you so much.